Comparison: Sigma 400mm f/5.6 HSM vs Sigma 600mm f/8 Mirror

I sold my Sigma 600mm this week, but before I shipped it out I did a head to head comparison between the Sigma 600mm f/8 Mirror (Reflex) and the Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO Tele-Macro HSM. The result was interesting, but not very surprising.

I tested three lens combinations:

1. Sigma 400mm alone
2. Sigma 400mm with 1.4x Tamron-F teleconverter
3. Sigma 600mm alone (well, using FD-EF adapter without the optical element)

In terms of setup, I shot across my living room and kitchen to a (mostly) flat Costco ad posted on a cupboard door. A single Sunpak 383 at 1/16 power illuminated it to add more light and to avoid any camera shake (the flash effectively makes the shutter speed 1/1000th second or faster). All shots were taken at 1/200 sec, wide open (f/5.6 for the 400mm alone, f/8 for 400mm w/ tele and 600mm), and ISO 100 for f/5.6, ISO 200 for f/8. All shots were manual focus and I took at least five for each, choosing the best to display below to avoid focus issues.

Here are the full frame shots (downsampled, click to see larger... but not full-res):

Overview: Sigma 400mm f/5.6 Telemacro HSM

Overview: Sigma 400mm f/5.6 with 1.4x teleconverter

Overview: Sigma 600mm f/8 Mirror

These shots don't really show anything notable for full frame. Yes, the 600mm has less contrast, but we expect that from a mirror lens. The 600mm seems to have more vignetting too, but again, that's expected.

One thing I noticed was that both lenses performed about the same in terms of focusing -- as in, it was a pain in the a**, but in this static situation I had over 50% accuracy on nailing focus. Obviously, the f/5.6 of the 400mm wide open makes the viewfinder brighter, but in this case I didn't find that a brighter viewfinder made focusing any easier.

Next up, a comparison of 100% crops. All were from the center of the shot. These were converted from RAW with 100% sharpening in Bibble and all other settings off.

100% Crop: Sigma 400mm f/5.6 Telemacro HSM

100% Crop: Sigma 400mm f/5.6 with 1.4x teleconverter

100% Crop: Sigma 600mm f/8 Mirror

As expected, the 400mm alone is the sharpest, followed by the 400mm with TC, and the 600mm decently behind. I'd also say the 400mm alone has the best contrast and color; again, this was expected. So, if you don't need 600mm of reach, the 400mm will definitely be your best option.

But what if you do need 600mm of reach? For instance, if you shoot birds, you pretty much need whatever reach you can get. Which lens combination will give you the best reach if you want to see something really tiny or really far away?

I tested this by taking larger portions of each of the images above and upsampling them to all be at the same resolution as the 600mm image. The image below is the composite of these three images (click to see it at 100% crop):

Comparison: All upsampled to resolution of 600mm
Top: 400mm, Middle: 400mm w/ TC, Bottom: 600mm

This is where things get interesting.

In terms of best reach, the 400mm with 1.4x teleconverter gives the sharpest image. Not by a lot, but you can definitely tell in areas of fine text (like the "invent" in the HP logo). But, on the other hand, the 600mm does slightly outperform the upsampled 400mm. Again, not by a lot, and the 400mm has much better contrast, but I can definitely see more detail on the 600mm image.

Of course, these results are the lower end of 400mm image quality. Although Tamron-Fs aren't that bad, they are a lower-end teleconverter, and a Pro TC should be at least marginally better on a super telephoto. Also, these were shot wide-open; if I could have stopped down the 400mm, it would have sharpened up even more. I'm not exactly sure how much more it would have sharpened up, but I suspect it would be noticeable.

So, in the end, yes, you are much better off with the 400mm lens than the 600mm mirror lens. This was my original hypothesis back when I got the 600mm. Plus, the 400mm lens gives better contrast, bokeh that isn't donut shaped, and autofocus. It seems like the 400mm would be a no-brainer compared to the Sigma 600mm.

Until you look at cost.

The 400mm (without TC) goes for $250+. The 600mm goes for right around $100 if you have to purchase the adapter with it. In fact, mine just sold for $70 including shipping without the adapter. Ultimately, it comes down to how much money you can spend and if you are willing to tolerate the quirks of the 600mm.

Personally, I'm happy to have the 400mm, but the 600mm was a great stepping stone until I could afford it.

Shoreline Birds at 400mm

This post is going to be mostly pictures and not as many words.

The Saturday after my defense (Feb 7th) I took a bike ride out to Shoreline and searched around for some birds to test my new Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO Telemacro HSM on. I was not dissappointed and found a couple of snowy egrets, a great blue heron, geese, a hawk (not pictured since I only got it in flight at long distance), and a western grebe (I think).

As always, click on a picture to see it larger.

Most of these shots are from a snowy egret that was catching minnows or maybe crayfish in one of the drainage streams. At first I thought the bird was a bit nuts since it kept swishing its feet around and doing a little shuffling dance, then ducking its head into the water and coming up with a leaf.

Later on, I realized that the stream was full of little minnows this time of year and it was just disturbing the leaves at the bottom of the pool to stir up whatever it was eating.

A little further along I ran into a GBH. Sadly, I was a bit constrained on my angle and wasn't able to keep that leaf from behind his head (it was around the corner in the stream and I had to climb out on some sand-bags without startling it). Although, I have to admit I didn't see the leaf until I processed the image, but I don't think I would have been able to move enough to remove the leaf from the shot.

Later on, I ran across the grebe, diving in the bay. He (she?) would dive and disappear for a minute, then pop up in a new location. But he had those electric red eyes that look so cool!


The Sigma 400mm performed quite well. The weight honestly didn't bother me as much as I thought it would (in some spots I used a monopod, but most shots were hand-held). Likewise, since it was a sunny day, I didn't feel like I was banging against the limits of its light gathering ability, and most shots were at ISO 200 with a pretty high shutter speed (1/500s or shorter).

The thing that bugged me most, which is really more due to the camera, was the fact that most images were back focusing. In other words, I'd line up the center focus point on the eye of the bird, but the autofocus would focus slightly behind the bird, putting the bird's head a little out of focus. I've noticed this before on my 20D, but a 400mm lens at f/5.6 really highlights any focusing problems.

The typically thing to do for backfocusing is send the camera and lens in to the factory to be calibrating -- oftening costing $100 or more EACH. Yeah, that's not going to happen with my current photography budget. I honestly suspect my camera because I've detected the problem before. Overall, it is relatively minor (with only a slight bit of softness). As long as I'm aware of it, I can adjust the focus manually using the HSM.

Speaking of the HSM, it is really nice. With proper light, the lens focuses really fast. Definitely on par with my 70-200mm f/4's USM. I'm very glad I was able to get the HSM version and it makes clean-up of focusing problems very easy -- just focus, twitch the wheel a little forward, and shoot.

I do regret the Err 99 problem (forcing me to stay at f/5.6). The lens gives pretty sharp pictures wide open, but I know it'd sharpen up even more (and give me a larger depth of field) if I could stop it down to even f/6.3. Especially for closer subjects, that extra depth of field would be nice.

But, for $250, I'm pretty happy with the thing.

Sigma 400mm f/5.6: Adorama and Test Shots

This morning I was already planning out some bad things I was going to say about Adorama in a post today. Specifically, they seemed to forget about mailing it out (I e-mailed them on Wednesday after ordering the lens on Sunday and asked why I did not have a tracking number yet; miraculously I didn't hear anything until it was in the mail the next day, UPS 3-day instead of ground!) and they gave me the wrong information on whether the lens suffered from the Err 99 problem.

Then, I e-mailed them this morning, and my tune changed significantly.

Here's the e-mail trail:

Me:

I received the lens and it is in good shape.

Except -- before bidding, I asked if it was fully compatible with a 20D and you said it was. This was the conversation:

Me: "Does this lens work on a 20D?"
You: "Yes, it is compatible with Canon 20D."
Me: "So, to be completely clear, this lens does not have the Sigma incompatibility that causes Err 99s on a 20D, 30D, etc. It has been rechipped (or didn't need the rechip) and works perfectly on newer cameras?"
You: "It should work fine."

But, I tried it out and it will not stop down, throwing an Err 99 on my 20D whenever I am in a mode other than A or M and whenever I try to set an aperture other than wide open in those modes.

I'm a bit unhappy about this -- not that the problem exists, because I was aware that older Sigma lenses have some incompatibilities, but that I wasn't given a straight answer about the condition of the lens so I could adjust my bidding accordingly. I would expect that a used camera dealer like Adorama would know the status of a lens or at least have the resources to verify if the problem exists. I bid on this lens with the understanding that it was fully compatible with my 20D and I am disappointed that it does not.

Is there something that can be done? What are your return policies? Is there a possibility of a partial refund if I was to keep it and save the return shipping (maybe 10% of the price)?

Them:

Good Afternoon Sean, We apologize for any inconvenience this may caused you. Would you be happy with $50.00 dollars as partial refund? Best regards Louis

Wow.

That was way easier than I thought. Of course, I had them over a barrel and they knew it -- I had clearly asked about the Err 99 problem, they had given me the wrong information, and I had bid more than I normally would have. I just did not expect them to respond within an hour and offer a partial refund (my preferred method to resolve it) for more than I had asked for. More than fair!

As Louis said (if you contact them ask for Louis!), "Our customers are very important to us."

So, yeah, I feel like I got a decent deal on this lens now. And while I thought Adorama was a little slimy before, my tune has totally changed now. Their quick response to this issue was very commendable.

Oh, and for those of you keeping score at home, note the importance of establishing a communication trail and the importance of protecting your rights and recontacting the seller if anything is wrong. EBay really is a buyer's market -- don't let yourself get abused!

* * * * *

Anyway, I was able to get some sample pics from the lens today. I was looking for a bird to shoot, but all I found was a nest!


The macro capabilities of the lens are pretty decent, but the inability to stop down (plus the really long and unwieldy focal length) make it non-ideal.


Still, though, I was pleasantly surprised by the sharpness and contrast. I'd love to be able to stop it down 1/3 or 2/3 of a stop to sharpen it up even more and gain some depth of field, but it really is pretty sharp wide open. The HSM is really fast and snappy and definitely on par with the USM in my Canon 70-200 f/4. Obviously, the thing is a tank and heavy as hell, and the slow aperture (f/5.6) makes it difficult to get good frame rates, but it worked well on the monopod.

Most of these shots were ISO 400 (with some ISO 200) and minimal editing other than a bit of contrast. If you doubt, here are some straight from the camera 100% crops (from RAW, default settings):




In my mind, camera shake and focus is going to effect the sharpness way more than the optimal ability of the lens. For the shots I nailed the focus and didn't have any shake on, the sharpness was quite good and the contrast and color were beautiful.

More on this lens in a couple of weeks when I have a chance to put it head to head vs the Sigma. I also put the Tamron-F 1.4x teleconverter on it and results were pretty good.

If you've got questions, leave a comment and I'll do my best to answer it.

Sigma 400mm arrived...

... and I'm a little bit disappointed.

Nothing wrong with the lens, it just exhibits the Err 99 problem. I was really hoping it wouldn't :) I'm not sure if I'll pursue Adorama for it, since the price I paid is pretty decent overall even if it suffers from the problem.

It is one of those things where I'd be shooting wide open or slightly stopped down anyway, so I'm not really losing much. But the idea that I can't stop down bugs me. Either way, it is a stop-gap lens until I can get a better one, so I should be happy. And for $300, it is a darn good lens (as far as I can tell). I'll evaluate it again in the light of day (although that may not happen for a few days).

Other impressions:

• It is really, really heavy.
• It is very big!
  
• The HSM is pretty nice -- seems to lock on solidly, even indoors, and it moves pretty quickly.
• Solidly built (except the hood) and in good condition.
• Nice case and packing.

Sigma 400mm to arrive today...

... and I'm pretty excited.

Of course, I'm working/transporting kids until 9 pm so I won't get to try it out for a while. I may stop home quickly if it is delivered before I need to pick up the kids (not wild about a $300 lens sitting outside my door for too long). That is, assuming a signature is not required...

A few more Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO Telemacro HSMs have shown up on eBay, and I'm realizing more and more that the HSM usually does not have the Err99 compatibility problem. I suspect it was released right during the time when Sigma realized the mistake so Sigma rechipped many of them before they left the factory and others were sent back soon after purchase. That makes the HSM significantly more valuable on the Canon mount than the others since it is much more likely to allow full aperture control. In fact, there's an HSM lens currently listing for $455 with a little bit of time left, meaning mine may be worth significantly more than just $300 (if I was willing to sell it again).

There's also another lens that just went up which has two spots of mold or fungus on the front element. While fungus is generally a bad thing, it might be an opportunity to get a decent lens cheaply and then get it cleaned.

The current listings are below (this is the same search I've been using to track Tokina and Sigma lenses)...

Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO Telemacro HSM Overview

I would love to make this a grand post with lots of pictures and links and great information.

Sadly, I don't have an hour or two to write a blog post at this point. So I'm just going to dash this off and then fill in some blanks later. I figure that is better than to write a post about my decision making on buying a certain lens after I receive it (and my concerns and/or suspicions are faded into history).

A while ago I decided that I wanted a super-telephoto in the 400mm range but compromised with a Sigma 600mm f/8 mirror lens. Since then, while the Sigma has worked pretty well, it has left me wanting a refractive lens so I could actually use more of the shots for stock. Out of boredom (or procrastination) I started monitoring eBay for appropriate lenses.

The first thing I realized was just how many versions there are out there. For instance, these are the Sigma 400mm f/5.6 lenses I know of:

• Non-Apo. Generally not well reviewed, and not very common. <$150 used, but probably not even worth it unless you can get it really cheap. I haven't seen a lot of them in EOS mount. Suffers from Err 99 (more on that later).
  
• APO, but not telemacro. Quite common on eBay, with maybe 6-10 lenses posted a month. Generally seen as a decent performer, but not as good as the telemacro lenses. Easily distinguished by a smaller focus wheel. $150-$250 used. Suffers from Err 99.
  
• APO Telemacro. A little less common on eBay -- maybe 3-5 lenses month. The telemacro lenses are very well reviewed and in some cases they've been given better marks than the Canon 400mm f/5.6 USM. A good lens with good optics, but a little on the heavy side. Easily recognized by the monster focus wheel. Most suffer from Err 99. $200-$300 used.
  
• APO Telemacro HSM. Pretty rare -- I've seen two this month, but previous months I didn't see any. Optically identical to the non-HSM telemacro and physically only differs slightly, but includes the HSM motor (high speed manual?), a USM equivalent. The most recent version, and only released in EOS mount and (some other mount I can't remember). Some suffer from Err99, but many don't. $250-$400 used.
  

I've also been keeping an eye out for the Tokina 400mm f/5.6 AT-X SD but that lens is quite rare and does not show up much. Maybe 1-2 a month if you are lucky (beware the manual focus FD version).

For obvious reasons, I've only been looking at the Canon EOS mount since I want autofocus to work on my camera. The big issue with Canon versions of the Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO lenses is that most were released before the 20D/350D and newer cameras, when Canon tweaked their lens communication code and caused older Sigma lenses to not work. As a result, most 400mm f/5.6 lenses cause an Err 99 code on newer Canon cameras, locking up the camera.

All is not lost though, since the glitch is something to do with aperture communication when the lens stops down. So, if you keep the lens at f/5.6 (in A or M mode) it does not glitch as much. The down-side of that is you are always shooting wide-open, which makes good lens performance important (which is why the telemacro version is much preferable). Of course, I haven't been able to test one of these lenses, so this is speculation on my part. From a recent eBay auction, the problem is described as:

It works on all Canon EOS cameras, film and digital. However, on a recent digital body like 450D, 30D or the 5D, it must be used at full aperture f/5.6. Auto focus works well and automatic metering can be used in aperture priority mode on these cameras. Manual Focus works always well at any aperture.

The fix for the Err 99 problem is called 're-chipping' the lens, which Sigma used to do for free, but now no longer does it. From what I've heard, 're-chipping' is simply reprogramming the communication chip without even opening the lens up but they call it 're-chipping' out of habit.

Of course, on mounts other than Canon, I've seen no mention of incompatibility problems.

In other auctions, I've seen lenses with the Err 99 incompatibility marked as Not for digital (including the seller adorwin, who I got my lens from, the eBay branch of Adorama). Either way, it is worth asking the seller about the problem. Some have no clue about the glitch though, so beware if you get a strange answer.

In my case, I asked about the problem and got a relatively clear answer but am still not entirely convinced. This was the conversation:

Me: "Does this lens work on a 20D?"
Them: "Yes, it is compatible with Canon 20D."
Me: "So, to be completely clear, this lens does not have the Sigma incompatibility that causes Err 99s on a 20D, 30D, etc.
It has been rechipped (or didn't need the rechip) and works perfectly on newer cameras?"
Them: "It should work fine."

So, I'm 80% sure I'm getting a newer version with no incompatibility. I've definitely heard of the HSM version having the problem and not having the problem. Given the chance of a re-chipped lens, my lens is easily worth the $305 I paid (including shipping). The re-chipped lenses can definitely command a price premium on eBay.

Even without the chip, I was still after a Sigma 400mm f/5.6 telemacro since they are reputed to be quite sharp wide open, and most of the time you'll be shooting wide open with a super-telephoto anyway. It is a nice option to stop down to get a little extra sharpness, but not a deal-breaker.

Watching eBay for a protracted amount of time I noticed a few things that I found odd. For instance, on the lens I won, about half-way through the 10 day auction time two guys got into a bidding war and drove the price over $350. Then, a few days later I checked the price on a whim and found that both bidders were gone! Apparently they both had their bids retracted, which I've never seen before. That seemed a bit odd to me.

Another funny thing was I bid a few times (already in the lead each time) including a final bid raising my max from $283 to $293. Since I wouldn't be around when the auction closed, I wanted to make sure I had the best chance of winning it, but I didn't want to spend more than $300. Well, as it turned out, the guy who was the second place bidder made a final bid of $285. If I hadn't raised my bid by that $10 I would have lost the lens!

Another odd thing I've noticed is the same buyer going after many of these Sigma 400mm f/5.6 lenses even after he's already won one of them. I've also noticed the same seller placing at least two of these lenses up for auction at relatively high prices. I have to wonder if someone is trying to turn a quick buck by flipping these Sigma 400mm lenses. I'll keep watching and try to figure it out!

I have more to say (including the fact that I'm going to sell off a bunch of stuff to pay for this lens), but I'm out of time tonight and I need to get to bed. I should get the lens in the next week or so and I'll at least post an image or two to whet your appetite while I wait until after my defense to get some real time using the lens.

Sigma 400mm Reviews:
Photography Review
Photozone.de

I just won...

... this.

(if you can't see it, it is a used EOS mount Sigma 400mm f/5.6 APO Telemacro HSM)

I got a pretty decent price ($290 + $15 S/H) especially since there is a decent chance it doesn't have the Err 99 incompatibility. Even if it does, it is still a decent price for this lens, since the HSM is quite rare and the condition seems good.

I'll be selling some lenses to cover the cost, including my Sigma 600mm reflex (once I'm satisfied the new lens is better).

More details soon...